006-Rise of Skywalker

Why Tim is wrong about Rise of Skywalker

Recently the AVNation team was talking about movies. We were discussing movies that we did not feel lived up to their billing and hype. Rise of Skywalker immediately came up. Tim Albright said he enjoyed the movie. We all guffawed and decided to record a rebuttal. We also wanted to test some new podcasting tools. There are spoilers in this episode. If you haven’t seen The Mandalorian Season 2 or The Rise of Skywalker you may want to skip this episode until you do. We feel we have waited long enough for everyone who wants to see the items, has seen the items.

Paige Flennikin is AVNation’s Sales Director. Mitchell Toolen is AVNation’s Producer. You can find them at AVNation.tv or on LinkedIn (MitchellPaige). Little known fact, Paige now gets the entries from the contact form on AVNation’s website.

Under the media is a transcript of the conversation if you would prefer to read the content.

Project Bradford
Project Bradford
006-Rise of Skywalker

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Tim Albright 00:38
Alright, here’s the here’s the thing, what was the Rise of Skywalker? It is not high theater, it is not going to win an Oscar anything. But after 40 years, I enjoyed myself. It was enjoyable. It was two hours of escapism, of wrapping up everything from the 1970s today, there were certainly problem with it, but I was entertained. And for the amount of money I spent, it was good money spent.

Bradford Benn 01:07
So welcome to Project Bradford. As you can see, I’m not here alone. I have a couple other friends from AVNation who are going to help me educate Tim, I’ll start at the beginning with the most important person on this entire podcast besides me, which would be Michel. Michel. Michel Toulon is the producer of AVNation. But can you go ahead and introduce yourself

Mitchell Toolen 01:33
I don’t, I’m not used to this because I’m normally in the background. I am the producer for AVNation, which means I am recording and editing everything that you see in here, except for this show, thank goodness. I mean, except for this show, because Bradford’s got it under control. Just the alternate title

Bradford Benn 01:51
of the other guests. Is the AV sales director or AVNation Sales Director, Paige Flynn, akin to get close and sweet. And so let’s see, I know she’s an opera singer. But why don’t you go on and tell us other things about yourself? That might be interesting.

Paige Flennikin 02:10
I’m also the project manager at AVNation. So any needs you have come to me and I will make all your AVNation dreams come true. I live in Kansas City. And that’s about you know, all the interesting. I’m a big Star Wars fan. That’s why I’m here.

Bradford Benn 02:27
So you guys have heard what Tim said. saying that it was fine entertainment, that he feels like he got his money’s worth. So I look at it the other way of the I didn’t like it as the ending of a 30 year saga, actually 40 year saga. But I figured guests first so I’ll let you to fight it out over who’s going to go first what

Mitchell Toolen 02:58
I kind of wanted to, I kind of wanted to throw it back to you guys. And Paige actually sort of answered this. But are you guys fans of Star Wars? Like, for me personally, I might get ostracized for saying this by the call. But I was raised on the VHS Special Edition ones with the CG and all those fun enhancements. And I was Don’t kid. Yeah. I didn’t know better. And I don’t I you know, I enjoyed them. I play the game. I played more of the games, like dark forces was was where I was at. So when the movies came out, I went, this is a thing. Oh, these aren’t very good. Okay, and, and moved on with my life with the prequels. Oh, so when these came out, I was kind of like, cool. But I wanted to see how you, you know how you guys felt on that?

Paige Flennikin 03:54
I think that the 70s ones are more probably close to your heart, Bradford. And, the prequels are more like my era because I’m a little bit older than you Mitchell. And even though obviously, George Lucas caught a lot of grief over the prequels because there was, I mean, there was a lot of things that happened in those that could have been done better. But when comparing it to the latest movies, I think that I mean, I sent you guys that funny George Lucas spoof this morning where he says it makes Attack of the Clones look like Citizen Kane.

Bradford Benn 04:41
Now, I will say that for me, it’s a little different. Because I saw them on the big screen in the 70s and 80s. And you know, big, you know, as I say kind of like Harry Potter is to certain people of the younger generation. Star Wars was too This was the big defining movie, and the prequels. I don’t acknowledge that episode one exists, I only watch the machete order. For those of you aren’t familiar with the machete order, it’s a new hope or the original Star Wars, then Empire Strikes Back, then two then three, which I forget the name of, and then Return of the Jedi, which was originally Revenge of the Jedi. And I still sometimes call it that. And then you go to seven and eight. And for some reason, nine just doesn’t play on my on my BluRay player anymore. Yeah, I know. I don’t know what happened.

Mitchell Toolen 05:40
The disc scratched because you’ve watched it so many times for critical analysis.

Paige Flennikin 05:45
Yes. There’s, I mean, it’s from Tim’s statements. I think that if you take it out of the context of being in Star Wars, if you take the giant Star Wars nerds out of all of us and just watch it as a movie, on its own, it’s entertaining. You know, there’s really great graphics. There’s a lot of good fight scenes, but in the overarching, even within its own trilogy, it just doesn’t mix. There’s just so many holes in the plotline and so many, like random out of left field things that happen that you’re like, wait, what, like, Where did this come from? This has nothing to do with the Last Jedi or the Force Awakens. Like, how is this the end to this massive? Like you said, 40 year saga?

Mitchell Toolen 06:38
Yeah, I feel like it’s hard because this thing doesn’t exist. Film doesn’t exist in a vacuum it has things behind it, not just the whole franchise. But I don’t think we can talk about Rise of Skywalker without getting a little bit into stuff like the Last Jedi or maybe even Force Awakens a little bit, which for me, like Last Jedi was so polarizing. Everyone either hated it, or, or was so a fan of it. But to me, it was the biggest thing that it did was that it did nothing. It was wheel spinning, essentially, where plots went, some were kind of interesting, and then just kind of came back to where it was. And through no fault of their own in a way they I mean, I can’t give them too much blame to say that because Ryan Johnson the way that the last one went that when you have your finale, you’re like, where do we go? What do we do? And as dumb as the things they do, it’s like I it’s hard to say that’s more of a weird, middle management thing about the whole trilogy and how terrible that entire thing was, how structured it was.

Paige Flennikin 07:57
Yeah, they had no blueprint for it. They just kind of were like, making movies. It felt like like there were I feel like the only character that had a true arc was Kylo Ren. Yeah. And they even ended his as like, okay, we’re done now. Like we’ve wrapped it up. He’s done.

Bradford Benn 08:16
I’ll disagree I think I think Rey has a has a story arc. It’s not his. Kylo is the story arc protagonist.

Mitchell Toolen 08:28
I think she has an arc until it gets like overwritten by the stupid stuff in Rise of Skywalker.

Bradford Benn 08:36
You mean like the ending scene where Luke Skywalker is old. And Princess Leia, known as she’s a Princess Leia is standing next to him as the force goes, she’s not General Organa at that point, she’s still Princess Leia because they made her young, unlike Mark Hamill, who was old and the same problem. At the end of at the end of Empire Strikes Back at the Ewok scene, they put young Anakin Skywalker next to Yoda, and Ben Kenobi, and I’m like, this is where you guys are messing up. It’s, you’re not even following your own rules. You know, I understand. Okay, you might want it to make it look like the actor that’s playing it. But come on that one, like, basic continuity error,

Mitchell Toolen 09:30
I think to be fair on that part. I don’t know. We don’t exactly know when Carrie Fisher passed how much they had. So that probably wasn’t her it had to be a stand in but I can’t deny that and I was I have this in my notes that I get like, the uncanny valley. there’s a there’s a hair on the back of my neck reflex that happens when I see creepy CGI, Carrie Fisher in this movie. It’s just like it’s not right. This isn’t right. This is this is great. As the as kenri camels upper lip in the theatrical release of Justice League, it’s like I can’t look at it. Ah, what is wrong with you?

Bradford Benn 10:12
And to your point, Mitchell Carrie’s daughter, Billie Lourd, I thought played her body double in the Jedi fight scene. They had enough footage, according to a lot of people because they had all that footage from when she was in space during Last Jedi, so they would have had tons of footage. So it’s kind of like going back and putting Anakin in is just a bad a bad continuity. And when the hell did you did, did a layer become a Jedi? When did she go to training? I was like, What? Did I miss something?

Paige Flennikin 10:59
Okay, so in Last Jedi, when the ship got blown up Kylo Ren, like backed off, but then they blew it up anyways. And she got sucked into the vacuum of space. Not only did she survive that, but then she Jdei’ed herself back into the pod where then she was just like, in a coma for a little bit. And then she was fine. Or she was like, in recovery.

Mitchell Toolen 11:23
And that’s, you know, that could be arguably another one of those things that the problems of the reboot in a way where like, that was my big thing about the Force Awakens is that it’s been 30 years between Return pf the Jedi and, and the new series. But nothing has changed. Not even the Republic, it is still the resistance. They’re still the underdog despite beating the Empire, Han Solo was still a smuggler. It’s because it is status quo is, is the important thing here. It would have been if someone maybe would have if someone who would have thought that’s a feels like a phrase that could have happened, um, that you know, I you could set up Hey, Leia had some for stuff going on. Introduce that in do things like that. Instead, they kind of feel like because it’s the third move we had ramp in. I don’t mind like having Geneva having for stuff. And it’s probably some I’m sure there’s, there’s some guy, I can just think of some guy who’s like, well, in the novels that are no candidate, I don’t care. Did this whole thing and Mara Jaden? Yeah, I’m, like

Bradford Benn 12:44
Canon has been shot to hell. It’s still kind of like they decided canon is going change a little to bring in some of the stuff that they think is better to bring in stuff from the Clone Wars, the cartoon series, and this and that, and Solo and Rogue One,

Paige Flennikin 13:05
They stick true to the, to the comics and all of that, like, the Clone Wars and Attack of the Clones and all of those. Okay, so if they were to have stuck to that and incorporated that into the story, Palpatine coming back would have made sense, because in the comics, he makes clones of himself. And in the comics, he comes back, but he has like that blue glow. That is representative of how he died. Like it’s his spirit. But he was like, his, I can’t remember which one it was, I was under him. Put him into this clone. And that’s how he lived on and that’s how he survived death. That’s what he learned from his Jedi teacher. That would have made sense, but instead, they’re just like, hey, b t dubs [by the way], he didn’t die. Here’s Palpatine on this weird hook.

Bradford Benn 13:56
But then you you couple that with the fact that I had never seen the force heal anybody before. Until gorgo did it? Sorry, spoiler if you haven’t seen Mandalorian season two, it’s your own fault at this point. But until Grogu did it or Baby Yoda did it or The Child did it, he did it the Thursday night before the movie released. And I got to think that was purposeful so they could show that the Force can heal. I’m like, Listen, why didn’t like the force heal, you know, Skywalker,s hand or, you know all this other stuff.

Paige Flennikin 14:47
I did some research into this because I thought the exact same thing where the F is this coming from like left field. So apparently, in the fanfiction lore, it has to do With the dyad, so they should be the only ones because their life force is connected, it makes them stronger. So therefore they can heal. So therefore those two should be the only ones able to heal. And it should, according to the fanfiction almost paralyze them to use this power because it is sucking their life force from them to heal this. So that is why Kylo Ren Dies at the End. Okay, that makes sense. Sure. But didn’t she also heal him after that battle when he was dying, it would have taken all of her life force to bring him back. Even though he wasn’t dead. He was dying, she would have had to fulfill him. And then she would have been paralyzed by having used all of her life force. Instead, she back flipped off of this ship. And then or this broken Death Star and then took off in a ship and also heal that snake. Like, what?

Bradford Benn 15:57
Yeah, seems to me that’s more of the I can understand that. It’s like, she didn’t have to use all of her life force because she was, you know, Kylo wasn’t dead. He had a fatal wound, but she repaired the wound which kept him from dying. She lost like three years.

Paige Flennikin 16:15
Yeah, yeah. But she had Oh, like, there’s no, it doesn’t there’s no connection from healing the snake, keeping him from dying.

Mitchell Toolen 16:25
There’s no time. We don’t we don’t have time to explain. It’s, it’s fine. I remember even at least when I first saw it, I don’t think I did. I don’t think it crossed my mind. But checking out the second time. First off, you owe me an evening because I regret it. spending the time to take notes for it. But they had they mentioned the dyad thing twice. Like he says it once and then Palpatine is like you are that thing. Oh, that was important. Okay. I yeah, I just, I can kind of get around to the healing. I mean, it’s been in games, but that’s more of a mechanic thing. But it’s just like, it’s fine. There’s so much. It’s so much worse. To get into that I think,

Paige Flennikin 17:13
I think I think you’re right. Absolutely. The dyad should have been more touched on. But I think that might be the disconnect between having different writers on the first second and third movies like obviously, JJ Abrams was first and third. But Rian Johnson in the middle just was like, I don’t really want to do this. So I just didn’t.

Bradford Benn 17:33
I’m going change gears a little bit and move to the actual characters. Just because, you know, I don’t want another Matt episode where we go for four hours. Rose got pretty much written out.

Mitchell Toolen 17:47
Oh, yeah, she got the worst.

Bradford Benn 17:50
Yeah. Finn met that new, the new Stormtrooper that decided to leave and I’m like, why didn’t you use the existing characters you jad? Already?

Mitchell Toolen 18:06
The characters in this movie don’t really have anything to do. I mean, they have, they have stuff to do. We got MacGuffins to get MacGuffins to get more, there’s always another treasure or mystery box to jump to, to get into but like we keep adding new people. And yet we don’t really do anything with our old ones. The only like, Rose shows up and I can’t like I remember how her actress got like bullied off a social media blitz. And basically, we’re just catering to those people by just being like, Yeah, but she’s not important right now. It’s just Finn giving a little pat on the shoulder is like you did good buddy. friendzone now, goodbye. Thanks.

Paige Flennikin 18:52
I love you saving my life. I think the major flaw with like Rose and the other desserter that he met on the island. I think it’s comes back to Finn. Because they what I think they were trying to do and this is just my personal opinion is they were trying to make like a love triangle for Rey. Like he would be her light side love and then Kylo would be her dark side love that way it would give some tension some a little bit more like the pull on both sides. But it just didn’t quite come off that way. He seemed very friend zoned with Rey like there was no like, break through between them. And so I think they put Rose in there to kind of give us a little bit more character development for Finn. And then that went on in the Last Jedi. But then I mean she kissed him said I love you risked her life for him and then we get to the last movie and it’s like, stay on the ship Rose. I’m going to hang out here with my new Islander chick.

Mitchell Toolen 19:55
Yeah, but I also I I don’t feel Like I got, I mean, there were like hints of romantic chemistry but I don’t think I got any of it on like Finn and Rey.

Paige Flennikin 20:07
Well, it’s the way he acts the way he just chased after her like a lost puppy dog constantly but Rey never reciprocates.

Bradford Benn 20:16
It was kind of like Solo chasing Princess Leia in the first movies.

Paige Flennikin 20:23
yeah, it never came back.

Mitchell Toolen 20:25
Well, that’s, you could you could say that a lot with a lot of things to this. It’s like this thing from the old movie. But worse. We have to put it in because people need to remember. Do you remember this? This thing from Star Wars?

Bradford Benn 20:42
Leia having the medal that she didn’t give to Chewy 40 years ago?

Mitchell Toolen 20:47
Why? Why even that’s such a it’s not for them. It’s for the audience. And it’s just like, why they did a lot.

Bradford Benn 20:56
And it’s actually worse than just ignoring

Mitchell Toolen 20:59
Oh, yeah

Paige Flennikin 21:03
That’s quite a few fan favorite moments that I’m like, guys, just make a good beat and will love it.

Mitchell Toolen 21:11
I’m just trying to get out. I’m just tried to run through the characters that we have, because we have Zorii played by Keri Russell, a friend sort of. She was Felicity, I believe on Felicity with JJ Abrams, it almost felt like a thing where you’re just like, Hey, we know each other. You’re doing a billion dollar movie. I’ll be in here for a day. Like Greg Grunburg showing up. And he was on alias., but it was just kind of like, I’m here. I’m a dude. And it wasn’t ready.

Bradford Benn 21:48
The left stuff from Last Jedi hanging out like the final scene of Last Jedi has that young kid using the Force to get the broom? And I’m like, Oh, this would be a great thing. Yeah.

Mitchell Toolen 22:04
Now, I just wrote it off.

Paige Flennikin 22:06
You had to because the next movie had nothing to do with it. It’s like Last Jedi was like, if you take Last Jedi out and then watch The Force Awakens and then Rise of Skywalker, it actually makes more sense that way. I mean, obviously, there’s some things missing. But the storyline overall is like, okay, I think that Disney took such a step back in the creative liberties and freedoms and just let these writers make great movies, which is what they’re good at doing. But they didn’t give them any kind of blueprint of this is our storyline from Force Awakens, you have to continue that it didn’t happen. This is where we’re going. This is where we’re starting. And that’s why I was saying, I feel like the only character that has an arc is Kylo Ren, because Rey, she starts with an arc, but it’s very quick. like think about the earlier movies, like it takes them years of training to become a Jedi, yours. And she’s just like, Oh, I got this now in the first movie, like halfway through the first movie. She’s already doing everything. There’s her arc. She’s done. There are two more movies. And they tried in the next two movies to develop her backstory, but they didn’t they just dropped it on us.

Mitchell Toolen 23:21
You know, I and that was the one that was kind of one of the few things that I liked a decent amount of things as a whole I think there are there a lot of issues but going Rey you’re an orphan, it doesn’t matter. What’s kind of cool, I think, and it could have been a good point. And I feel like they had to double back and be like, Ah, no, that doesn’t make sense. Star Wars is a super closed universe when you think like there’s so much possibility for stuff but when it always comes back to, “No, it doesn’t matter.” It doesn’t matter what you accomplish. You are the daughter granddaughter, they tried to do a Luke I am your father thing here and it just is a wet fart. Yeah. And I think that it would have been cooler if even if Palpatine had come back which I’d still have issues with, but it would have been would have had been a better thematic thing of the person he least expect is a nobody to be the one that rises and beats him not. Oh, it’s my granddaughter. Let’s not even Yeah,

Paige Flennikin 24:36
I agree. I think that is kind of cool. She was a scavenger obviously she had some backstory, but I think that they it seemed like they were grasping at straws bringing property back.

Mitchell Toolen 24:47
Oh, they were just like, we got to find somebody to connect this to Otherwise the fans won’t care. They’ll be like, Who’s this new guy? I don’t know. Which I think is what they did that with Snoke.

Bradford Benn 24:57
The big thing that got me was when they’re like chanting and building up when the Dark Side is chanting and building all those Star Destroyers I’m like, why aren’t there’s a bunch of Jedis on the other side doing the exact same thing.

Mitchell Toolen 25:15
why did we have to use space magic to do that? instantly? You’ve been playing? You’ve been apparently in the background for 30 years you couldn’t have. We couldn’t have been like we’re doing from praying this we had to be like, well, people aren’t going understand that we’re just going space magic. Boom. Yeah, was really, drastically, the power levels of that what Palpatine can do is really vague and stupid.

Paige Flennikin 25:41
Yes, it is.

Bradford Benn 25:44
Palpatine I thought was kind of like Obi Wan Kenobi when he got killed. His body disintegrating and became the Force. You know, it mainly evil Force, the Dark Side. But you know, I was like, same way Luke disappeared and Leia disappeared. Same way. You’ll notice supposedly disappeared, And Palpatine was like, I’m back. And I’m like, I’ll bring everyone else back. I like those other people.

Mitchell Toolen 26:13
Yeah. It’s funny in a way that it’s I was we saw a kind of debate of whether the Palpatine on Exegol was the original guy. Was he the dude was he is he like a super old dude. And these guys that we saw, like at the end of Return [of the Jedi], is that a clone? And it got destroyed? Or did he survive getting thrown off a thing? ignoring the fact that that makes Darth Vader’s redemption story, and his whole thing a moot point that his entire life is just kind of useless now. And is it that and it’s like, it’s not that it’s vague enough. It is vague. It’s just not told. So we add like, our brains are just forced to be like, well, we got to fill in the cat stuff now. And it’s almost like that’s their intention. They’re like we’re not going to do it.

Bradford Benn 27:17
Some dude in his basement is going to be like, I will put the strings together and find out why Palpatine looks like death from Bill and Ted. Like John Nash in A Beautiful Mind this goes with this goes with this.

Paige Flennikin 27:23
It just there’s no quick connect. It just doesn’t make sense.

Bradford Benn 27:26
They did the exact same thing with the comic relief of do the little wheel droid. I’m like, What the hell was he there for? That should have been R2 (Artoo) or BB8.

Mitchell Toolen 27:39
It looks exactly like a Lego character. just slap that Hasbro license on that. Sold now.

Bradford Benn 27:48
I was like it’s Clippy, it’s Clippy from Microsoft.

Mitchell Toolen 27:54
At one point it says sad and I thought of the robot devil going you can’t say how you feel that makes me angry.

Paige Flennikin 28:05
I know there’s a there’s a lot going on. And that just doesn’t make sense. These especially around the characters and I feel like they did create good characters. They just didn’t go anywhere with them.

Mitchell Toolen 28:21
I think like especially in this one. Poe and Finn have this like buddy cop dynamic going on when they’re when they’re connected. I’m like, I want to see more of this. This is kind of what I’m going for. I really like that part. But we don’t have time for it. We’re just going to blaze right past it. You know, we bring up the already shows up and try and kind of gives a little shade of two, or at least depth to Poe. Oh, he was a spice runner. And you’re like, well, that’s an interesting thread. Are we going to pull on it now? Okay. There’s no time we got to move on. There’s no time is basically the entire plot of this thing. It’s like they’re constantly just shoving in stuff, where you just go where you don’t have time to say, Wait, what? No, wait, what? No, it’s okay. We don’t have to. Like I remember my first thought when I first saw it was man this action, like their first scene where they’re driving through the snow thing to get a message. I’m going this is a little fast paced, but you know, we got to pick up we got a thing at some point, it’ll slow down, right? And it really doesn’t, except when more and more important stuff happens, pal. They give us a Palpatine message and don’t use Ian McDiarmid to say anything that would be the smart thing because he you know he’s not like known for being hammy and talking. That part just kind of goes up and again, like I have it in my notes like a wet fart. He just goes somehow and returned 15 years later.

Bradford Benn 29:54
It was even in the opening credits. The opening score. And I literally went, what the fudge

Mitchell Toolen 30:03
I honestly, I was. Were kind of okay with that I took my notes sequentially so I’m having to scroll around with it. But I, you know, with Star Wars especially like the first one, the opening crawls are a staple of the series. And for something like the first one you’re like, well literally no one knows what going on. We got to we got to put the stuff in it. So I mean, it’s not the worst crawl. I think the Revenge of the Sith I think the Revenge of the Sith one where they says there are heroes on both sides is maybe still the worst one.

Bradford Benn 30:37
No, I think the crawl is a good thing that had to be there.

Mitchell Toolen 30:40
Where I’m just like, Oh, I get it. I but I do agree. I don’t like it, there’s the whole show don’t tell thing. And a lot of exposition is just kind of doled out because we don’t have time. We could if we had the foresight to put these things out and plan it like a series. We would have that but big time we don’t. So yeah. And I I am just flabbergasted by it. Because anytime there’s something interesting going on, it kind of it just doubles down on it when we have the scene where we get to a moon of Endor let’s ignore the fact that we have a dagger. I don’t know when this thing was made but it matches up with wreckage of the Death Star to it and she knew where to stand exactly so it would match up

Paige Flennikin 31:46
point the thing, pull the thing out and hold it just right

Mitchell Toolen 31:49
Yeah. And and we’re like oh, but we can’t go there right now. The waves are too risky. Okay, cool. We can slow down. Jana and Finn oh they’re having a moment because about the Stormtroopers and Stormtrooper people like conscripting children. Wow, what an interesting Oh, no. Rey just went and took a skimmer. She’s got skin in the plot. There’s no time we got to go

Bradford Benn 32:17
I’m still trying to figure out why she stole a skimmer. Because to me, I’m like, Force jump out there. You’re doing this teleporting lightsabers via the Force and teleporting.

Mitchell Toolen 32:29
It doesn’t matter. There’s no there was no danger involved literally like and also the others, they get there fine. They’re just kind of show up later. Like that’s just nothing.

Bradford Benn 32:38
Why were there spider webs?

Mitchell Toolen 32:41
spider webs?

Bradford Benn 32:43
How do you know there are spiders in space? There were all sorts of spider webs on the Death Star

Mitchell Toolen 32:49
They were already on there. You know, how do I know

Paige Flennikin 32:52
Once she got into that? How do you know where to go? Like, looking from the shore…

Mitchell Toolen 32:59
don’t worry about it.

Paige Flennikin 33:00
Then all of a sudden she’s like, okay, it’s in here.

Bradford Benn 33:04
Well, I took a picture of it with my mind’s eye.

Paige Flennikin 33:09
I wish they would have actually given her that dual lightsaber. That thing was cool.

Mitchell Toolen 33:14
That was such a trailer tease that I ended up hating it more in the thing where it’s like it’s just a projection and unlike Luke training and he fights Darth Vader’s image in his head is in the helmet. You’re like, Oh, that’s it. This is like Nah, it’s just kind of there because you want it’s reminds me of the same shot in Rogue One’s trailer that they didn’t even use where lady whose name or actress I forget is like in Imperial armor. You’re like, is this a betrayal is the thing you’re like, no, it’s nothing. It’s all nothing Don’t worry about and it’s not. It’s all like, I was reminded in a lot of these action scenes of a 2016 Shane Black movie called The Nice Guys. It’s got Ryan Gosling and Russell Crowe. It’s a funny neo-noir detective story. And it was it’s hilarious, but it’s also got really good action. And the action is just usually just them shooting at each other. Now those guys they’re shooting bad guys. But the reason that I’d say engaging is because the characters are good. Yeah, the story is interesting. You have Rey, doing a backflip to cut a Tie Interceptor fighter, like going full Neo and all the energy in the world. And I’m like, my eyes just glaze over because I’m like, I don’t care. This is in service to anything in the story? Yeah, why did the story basically stop just to do an action scene?

Paige Flennikin 34:44
Why did that whole thing happen?

Mitchell Toolen 34:46
I don’t understand that at all. We’re Indiana Jones. Now we got to go. We got to go get the, we got to go get the thing to get the thing to get the thing so that the movie can happen. Yeah. Now, a lot of a lot of it ends up being totally useless.

Paige Flennikin 35:01
Yeah, he crushed one and then she lit his Tie Fighter on fire. And then Luke was like, don’t worry about it. It’s okay.

Mitchell Toolen 35:10
One of the biggest of many Last Jedi like recants there’s so many of these things in the in the thing where they’re like, well, oh man that Last Jedi was, especially when forced loot comes out and goes, this is the most important thing. And everything else I said last time was wrong. And that guy was a hack. It’s just such a like, What is going on? There was no tying vision. There was no one. At least with Last Jedi. Rian Johnson was the one dude kind of getting everything together. But here they’re like, Ah, no, no, we can’t damage control. It’s too different. Everything is scary. Yeah. You got to bring back Lando. We got to bring back these guys. Yeah, get see 3PO is very important

Bradford Benn 35:58
I don’t know why 3PO had a red arm.

Mitchell Toolen 36:02
Does anyone know? Why is that important? Why did why did? What’s her face? How did she get in? Luke’s lightsaber? It’s time that’s a story for another time

Paige Flennikin 36:14
Rey ended up from the after the big battle between like when she and Kylo Ren teamed up to go against Snoke. Okay, so that’ll happen. They both got knocked out. He wakes up alone and General Hux says Oh, she left on Snoke’s ship then literally the next scene she is on the Millennium Falcon.

Mitchell Toolen 36:36
Don’t worry about it. It’s fine. He was he was already the spy at that point. I guess which you know what for? For motivations being pure spite. I kind of enjoyed that. Yeah.

Paige Flennikin 36:52
I don’t care if you win. I just need him to lose.

Bradford Benn 36:55
Yeah. I thought that was a great line.

Paige Flennikin 37:00
Did you guys get any like with Force powers with Finn?

Mitchell Toolen 37:08
Yes, yes. But there’s no time. Oh,

Bradford Benn 37:14
I thought they were alluding to it when he met Jana, “of the we just felt it”. You know, and the fact that like he and Rey kind of had this thing that wasn’t a thing. That was a thing. But it wasn’t pulled. But it was Rey and, you know, it’s kind of like, okay,

Paige Flennikin 37:31
yes, Finn goes lightsaber to lightsaber with Kylo Ren and holds his own for a while. Yes. indicator.

Mitchell Toolen 37:38
I don’t mind that. He doesn’t like, you know, he doesn’t do his own Force pushing and stuff like that, that it’s all that it’s all sensing stuff. But it doesn’t feel exactly like that. It feels more like he has the script in the back of his pocket. Like, we need to go there. Why? They told me. Yeah, it’s yeah, it’s many times where they’re just like, oh, yeah, yeah, I use that thing.

Bradford Benn 38:02
I get up out of the medical Bay, I pull all the hoses out, and I just start walking around and no one sees me

Paige Flennikin 38:09
It would make it worse. If they would have developed him having some kind of Jedi senses like at the beginning, when he went in Force Awakens, when they come out of that Cantina, he’s holding the lightsaber, he’s the one fighting with the light, or he’s the one going after it. That’s where all of that first starts with him being like Rey’s side on the light. But then in Jedi, they just send them to a casino planet with Rose. Like, what?

Bradford Benn 38:37
And then BB8 steals the show. And then they completely dropped that section when they get to the ninth movie.

Paige Flennikin 38:44
Yeah. And then they’re like, Oh, he’s sensing things again. And it would make more sense of him chasing Rey around trying to find Rey because he would be the only one able to do that if they had developed his character. Because Don’t worry about it.

Bradford Benn 39:01
I’m also kinda like, I’m trying to remember when Poe got shot, and he got injured. He had his arm in a sling. Why didn’t Rey heal him?

Paige Flennikin 39:12
Yeah, she’s got these healing powers.

Mitchell Toolen 39:22
I mean, do you remember when chewy got blown out for all of three minutes? Yeah.

Paige Flennikin 39:28
How did he end up on a different ship?

Mitchell Toolen 39:30
They just go now there’s another ship, and it doesn’t let you and it doesn’t. The thing that bothers me more about it, not just that, you know, let’s start with that. This whole thing is kind of Rey’s fault. And everyone just goes it’s okay. It’s fine. There’s no conflict. There’s no like you like you made Chewy die

Paige Flennikin 39:51
Why did you shoot lasers out of your hand like Palpatine and blow up a ship?

Mitchell Toolen 39:54
Yeah. And later we get a scene where Rey goes oh, I sense Chewy Wouldn’t that be more interesting if he was gone for more than just a minute? Like I think I timed it accurately three minutes later because we don’t i don’t know we don’t want the kids crying in the theater something like oh no they killed the big dog it just like he was alive. Don’t worry about it. Tension didn’t deflate.

Bradford Benn 40:22
Yeah, but you now need to buy the action figure where he doesn’t have his bag and bandolier to match the movie. Because I know that was a lot of this movie.

Mitchell Toolen 40:35
Yeah, those jumper guys who fly now Yeah, that is that actually that again? Felt like another like slap the Hasbro thing on it with the with catapulting action. We only have it just to have treads so they can wrangle it up and blow it up.

Paige Flennikin 40:54
And Poe says, “they fly now?”. He’s like always like he says it what we are all thinking. But also it’s like, it’s still dumb. Don’t worry about the humor.

Mitchell Toolen 41:04
That’s I think it started like last night was the thing where I’m just like, why is this happening? I mean, it’s not like it’s not like they were super serious movies, prequels being what they are notwithstanding. But it’s like what it just feels it feels Marvelly, but in a bad way. Like we’re trying to get it. We’re trying to get those clips, but it really doesn’t work at all.

Bradford Benn 41:35
Like the previous ones in four, five and six. It was the interaction between the characters that made it funny. It wasn’t lines. And here they’re writing the lines. And I’m like, you’re forcing it. You’re trying to make Poe a mechanical, make him the comic relief. And I’m like, yeah, this isn’t good. There were so many other things that could have been developed and you’re making him comedy. Then as I’m watching the Stormtroopers fly. I was like, Okay, I can deal with that, because the Death Troopers that we saw on the Mandalorian once again, spoiler sorry, but the Death Troopers, they flew. I was like, Well, okay, that makes sense. Wait, why don’t they have more Death Troopers then?

Mitchell Toolen 42:18
I liked better when they were Dark Troopers. Yeah. That was the whole dark forces plot. Yeah, that was cool. We had to go back to some semblance of a plot.

Paige Flennikin 42:29
Yeah, I think these three movies, especially this last one makes us all have, like leave the theaters scratching our heads. Like we have more questions now than we did. You really analyze the last two movies and realize how much doesn’t make sense. Like I never thought I could watch a movie that’s supposed to be the concluding factor and have more questions than I did in the first place. Like it just leaves much to be desired.

005-Matt Scott

Talking with Matt Scott - Part 2 of 2

Bradford Benn sat down with Matt D. Scott in February for a wide ranging discussion. This discussion was not focused solely on AV. They covered topics from being a business owner to the impact of social media to how one defines themselves without talking about their job. The conversation went much deeper than expected. They spoke for over 150 minutes, that is 2.5 hours. The conversation was edited for length, and it still takes two episodes to gather all of the good content. The first half of the discussion can be found at Project Bradford Episode 004.

Matt is a fellow AVNation board member. He’s also the host of ResiWeek on AVNation, as well as being the owner of Omega Audio Video in London, Ontario, Canada. He also has been a CEDIA board member. You can contact him on LinkedIn or follow him on Twitter.

Under the media is a transcript of the conversation if you would prefer to read the content

Project Bradford
Project Bradford
005-Matt Scott

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continued from Part 1

Bradford Benn

I don’t know anyone who’s ever had their mind changed by Twitter.

Matt Scott

Now, now, I thought about it, I couldn’t find anybody.

Bradford Benn

There are things like, Okay, this is the news article that was posted by reputable news source. And now here’s another news article posted by another reputable news source. And it’s not that it happened on Twitter. It’s just where they post the link to their articles, and those to provide deeper background. It’s one of the reasons I like reading the newspaper, even though it’s now electronic, but reading that instead of the TV, because you get those longer backgrounds, bigger in depth, yeah. All that stuff. And while they might post the headline on Twitter, and that pulls me in who yet still,

Matt Scott

can you read the headline?

Bradford Benn

Yes. And part of it is I subscribed to three newspapers electronically.

Matt Scott

Yeah. I I’m in that camp too, because I hate I’m one of the one of the few people who seems to hate the whole hanging ago, watch this little how to clip or whatever it is this news clip on, on YouTube. I don’t like doing that. I’m much bigger fan of reading. I want to read something I want to read an opinion or a hopefully, semi unbiased report on something. I want to read some facts, not what you think. And, you know, the last couple years have been disappointing for me, because I’m a huge news junkie. But I can’t watch broadcast news anymore. Because there’s no actual or there’s very limited reporting. Yes, there is like, it always cracks me up. Because when we started AV nation, one of our biggest things was that we were providing commentary. Which is one of the things that I absolutely hate about broadcast news. Right? is I don’t want commentary in news. I want a reporting on the news and want to make up my own mind.

Bradford Benn

I disagree that we’re providing commentary. I think we’re providing context.

Matt Scott

Yes. Yeah. But we were we when we started, we were very much about getting content, context, and commentary.

Bradford Benn

Right. Right. Because my opinions always right. So of course, we had to publish that. Well, yeah.

Matt Scott

Yeah. That’s why we started the whole thing. Tim just hasn’t figured it out.

Bradford Benn

That’s why I keep signing his paychecks and don’t argue about what his pay rates going to be.

Matt Scott

No, no, no, no, just let them let them live in oblivion. It’s fine.

Bradford Benn

And I agree with you on the on the YouTube stuff. And I’m, I believe that news has gotten very soundbite based and has been happening for years. And oh, yeah, part of it is I, you know, when I used to watch the evening news, it was CBS with Walter Cronkite, and then came on the Muppet Show at 7:30. And, you know, I’m being dead serious. But that was, you know, like, half my childhood was dinner, Walter Cronkite, Muppet Show, bed. And that doesn’t happen. But now it’s like, there are certain videos. I want to see that you can’t find on the news you have to go to YouTube.

Matt Scott

I probably phrase that slightly aggressively. That’s why I’m just it’s, it’s very much one of those things that when you know, when I’m trying to figure something out, right, or if I’m trying to troubleshoot an issue with my stove, you know, I want to see, I want to see an article on how to fix it. I don’t want to watch the little, you know, 30 minutes. Hey, this is George your appliance man. Let me show you how to fix your GE Frigidaire. Whatever it is my stove. I have to fast forward for all that stuff, right? But yeah, it’s I think reading is a bit of a lost art even, like I tend to. I made a conscious decision about two years ago, because I realized that the only reading, I was doing was either news or tech related something. Whether it was a review on something, whether it was General news on tech, whether it was a product manual. Everything was very work related.

Bradford Benn

It wasn’t for enjoyment.

Matt Scott

No, no, there was no reading for enjoyment. Yeah, I have cut down on the hair product. Because I don’t go anywhere.

Bradford Benn

I put a shirt on today. You know, because I was recording so it’s already a good day.

Matt Scott

That is a good day. I have to put on a shirt because it’s cold here.

Bradford Benn

I make myself put on real clothes to go to work in my home office.

Matt Scott

It does help. Yeah, I am not a I cannot come down here. I’m, I’m in my home office right now. I can’t come down here in like, you know, T shirt and sweatpants. and be productive during the day. I can do it at night. Like I if I if I’m behind on something or if I’m trying to get ahead on something. I can pop into the office at nine o’clock at night after the kids go down and get stuff done like that. You know and slippers and the whole the whole middle aged man thing.

Bradford Benn

You have like a dressing room? Not a not a bathroom dressing robe or a dressing gown.

Matt Scott

No, I’ve never had a dressing robe or a dressing gown. I haven’t had a bathrobe in yours. I don’t think I’ve had one since I’ve been married. Yeah, no, no, although my son got,

Bradford Benn

yeah, but what day is it? We have an analog calendar on the refrigerator that we crossed the days off. So that we know

Matt Scott

what I was talking to someone yesterday, and I had mentioned that I was out doing something like you’re out? Yeah. When did you When did your you know stay at home order? And I mean, it was like it was Tuesday. Like, well, that was a week ago. Like, oh, yeah, I guess it was just, I don’t know, I have no idea. And it’s not because I’m you know, just sitting at home every day, but it’s the routine is gone.

Bradford Benn

I’ve been thinking about that. It’s not just the routines gone. But I think it’s also streaming of video content has made days of the week. Not important because people used to be asked to be home for Monday Night Football have to be home for Dallas on Friday nights have to be home for cheers on Thursday. And now it’s like, yeah, it’s like, yes. You know, Mandalorian and Wanda vision. Those are kind of Yeah, have to see those the night but that stuff has come back.

Matt Scott

And I think that is that aspect is pushing. Some of this like must see TV back to reality. And I would argue it probably started with Game of Thrones.

Bradford Benn

Right. And I think it, but it was this is Sunday night then you knew it was Sunday? Yes. But now, you know, if I want to watch Battlebots I don’t have to watch it on Thursday night. We can watch it on Saturday. Yeah. And so, it doesn’t. You don’t need to keep track of those days as mine.

Matt Scott

Even if you watch it the same day, you probably don’t watch it the same time. Like we don’t ever sit down to watch anything that starts at 8am or sorry, 8pm on any given night, because we’re putting kids to bed. Right? So, we might want something that is on a on a Tuesday. Today, Tuesday, today’s Tuesday.

Bradford Benn

Today’s Tuesday, my computer says so

Matt Scott

that’s what I just looked at we might sit down on Tuesday to watch something that is on Tuesday. But because we’re not watching it at eight o’clock on Tuesday, we’re watching it at 1030 and just watching that PVR recording, right? It still doesn’t matter. It still doesn’t give you that that time clock of Oh, this is what day it is. And I also argue that so many traditional events that make up my life, your life. You know there’s conferences I’ve gone to for 25 years that I haven’t been to in a year that like we’ve got one coming up that we know really go to the first week of March that we can’t go to. And it’ll be streamed, and we’ll watch it a little bit and all that other stuff. But if I’m physically not there, or I don’t travel to go there, I want you to think that I’m going to dedicate the same amount of time to it, but I won’t write can’t because I’m not there.

Bradford Benn

Let me ask you, probably a more serious and much more difficult question. Okay. Would you go to ISC or InfoComm?

Matt Scott

So, it’s not a yes or no answer. And I’ll tell you why. It is a yes answer. With restrictions, okay, or with a caveat. And the caveat is, if I could go to IRC the way I always go to ISC, which is, drive to Detroit, drive to Toronto, jump on a plane, flyover mask or not, I don’t care. That’s inconsequential, at this point. land in Barcelona, jump in a taxi or an Uber and go to the hotel and then go to the trade show? Yes, I probably would. Now, the caveat to that being. Currently, I can’t do that. I have not checked what Barcelona’s entry requirements are. Currently. I know for the UK, it had come out, I think last week that no one can get in from the UK until they reach something like a 70% vaccination level. Alright if we use that as a parameter, barometer, I should say, for Canada, that I can fly into Barcelona. If Canada reaches a 70%. I won’t be going to Barcelona for the next two and a half, three years, because we are so behind right vaccinations.

Bradford Benn

But then at the same time, if you were coming back from Barcelona, and you had to quarantine occur,

Matt Scott

yes. It’s so starting as of Thursday, last week, not only do you have to quarantine in Canada with your you know, take a test 72 hours before you get on the plane, all that jazz. You now have to isolate, and I’ve been through this, I’ve done the isolation at home, where I can’t leave my house, I’m not supposed to be in my front yard, I can be in my backyard, but I can’t be in the front yard all those rules. And I’d be very diplomatic on that. I’ve done that. That was okay. It’s why we took the whole family when we went to Florida for the funeral was so that when we came back, the whole family could isolate together, it was the lesser of two evils for me to go to Barcelona, and quarantine, upon return for two weeks in a government mandated hotel, at a cost of north of $2,000 out of my pocket, not to mention lost wages last time last time with my family, all that other jazz. I’m not going to do that unless someone makes the case for why me going to Barcelona is an incredibly substantial reason, which I don’t believe, like Mike Blackmon could call me directly and ask me to do it. And I don’t. I’m not sure I’d see the upside of that. Just due to those isolation rules. The same applies for InfoComm in Orlando, and before InfoComm CEDIA in Indiana. I’m being told that CD is going to go off in September. And I got asked last week if I was going to come. I said, Well, Biden currently has a seven-day quarantine upon entry. So that means I come in for let’s say a day of the show because it is drivable for me. Know, you want me to drive in or fly in or whatever. For one day, that seven days on the front end. And I’ve got to get a hotel, right? Yep. Got to do that. I’ve got to pay for food to be delivered and all that other jazz I’ve got to isolate for seven days there’ll be a cost to that we can kind of safely assume minimum $1,000 Yeah, US Go to the show for a day or a couple of days at this point, it doesn’t matter. But go to the show for a day. And then drive fly home, whatever, get home, again, have to isolate in a hotel for two weeks. And not a nice hotel. Like not they’re not bad hotels, but they’re not nice hotels. I’ve stayed at one of them. That that’s at Pearson. I wouldn’t stay there on purpose, and I’ve seen the food they’re delivering and making accessible. Yeah, it’s not like that’s not what I do. It’s not how I eat. Right? I don’t think that you can make me the case. That there’s a huge upside to doing that. That’s three weeks that I can’t really work. I’m sure I could do some stuff. But it’s three weeks, then I’m away from my family. It’s three weeks. I’m away from work. It’s three weeks. Or I’m stuck in a hotel room. Like I watched I don’t know if you saw it, but I watched a bunch of the coverage of the tennis players at the Australian Open. Because I had to quarantine for two weeks before they could play. It looked terrible. Yeah. And they were being taken care of. Yeah. But it looked terrible. Even Federer in his like ridiculous suite did not look good. did not look enticing at all.

Bradford Benn

Part of its you’re in one room, for two weeks, you’re going to go stir crazy good.

Matt Scott

And then I was in my house for two weeks and went stir crazy. Yeah. Like, there just comes a point where? Like, I don’t. And again, I’m not by no means equating the two they are not equal at all. But it gave me even a minor glimpse as to how terrible prison must be. Yeah. Like, and again, I’m not equating it. I did not go through.

Bradford Benn

Well, it’s, but it’s, uh, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s a restriction no matter what, it’s a restriction.

Matt Scott

I really want to go to ISC. I missed ISC. This year, I want to be able to go to InfoComm, I want to be able to go to Expo CD Expo. I don’t, I don’t see it happening. And it’s not because I don’t support the channel. It’s not because I don’t support the show. It’s, it’s because I can’t justify a quarantine for like, we’re trying to feel my wife hasn’t seen her mother since the funeral. And if you can imagine how hard that is to essentially be an only child of her mom now be alone. And not being able to get her because she was supposed to be up here in like a month. And not necessarily knowing if we can even get her up here, let alone us going down there. If I’m going to put up with isolation or quarantine or whatever, with all due respect to the people that run those shows, I’m going to do it so my wife can see her mom. I’m not going to do it I can go walk a trade show floor. And I’m seeing I’m seeing a lot of conversation about what that shows going to look like or any of those shows are going to look like and if you have to be vaccinated if you have to have you know, tests done every day or whatever, I don’t think those are real big sticking points for people. I don’t think they will be but if you have to quarantine coming in or coming out. Those are sticking points. And there will be people who travel internationally for them. But it’s not going to be Hey, we’re going to grab the team and we’re going to fly over from the UK to come to Orlando. As nice as Orlando will probably be in October.

Bradford Benn

weather will be nice weather will be light delightful.

Matt Scott

I don’t for my business it’s not worth it. For omega there’s not the value is not there. And I don’t think they’re, I really don’t think there’s anything they can do to make it valuable unless they’re going to pay for that time. Right Mr. Lebowski, if you’re listening, that’s Yeah,

Bradford Benn

I don’t I don’t disagree with any of your points. But so like, I’ve been thinking about will I go to InfoComm? Because it’s less than 10 miles from my house. Yep. And where it starts to get interesting is the actual physical logistics like, if someone gets a 10 by 10. Booth, and you’re supposed to still stay six feet away?

Matt Scott

You’re standing in the aisle.

Bradford Benn

Yeah. And then how do people stand six feet away from you?

Matt Scott

So, I would I the logistics are in credibly challenging. Yeah. But I would offer and I, I sort of know how it is in Florida. I spent a little bit of time there a couple of months ago. Here. And we again, we just came out of stay-at-home orders we’ve been open for a week today. Yeah. I was in today I was in a Lowe’s. And I was in a grocery store. I was at a gas station. And then some clients. There are people doing their best to maintain some level of distance. And there are a vast variety of people who really give No, no notion to that at all. And no matter where you fall on that debate, and I don’t really want to debate that. But it is shocking to me how hard especially appear, because we have, like Canada as a whole. And Ontario as a whole have hammered this issue. significantly stronger than I’m making the general assumption they have in Florida.

Bradford Benn

Yeah, I can definitely attest to that. I’m

Matt Scott

sure. Yes. They’re not doing it here. There is no, like there’s one, one retailer, I go to for some miscellaneous things, and I kid you not every checkout terminal has a 24-inch-wide piece of Plexi. In the middle of the terminal. I go straight up, you know, four feet, three and a half feet. And the cashier will if this is the glass. Hey, Sir, how are you? What can I get you? Every time. And again, not here to debate that. But we saw it. Or at least I saw it at InfoComm. The official arm sorry, at ISC. Last year, the official rule was elbow balm, the knees shake or the foot thing? Yeah, whatever it was. And there was a bunch of people who didn’t shake hands. There’s a bunch of people who wouldn’t elbow bump, or fist bump or foot shake, or whatever that guy was. And there was a bunch of people who hugged and like, and it ran the gamut. And I view it kind of the same as, you know, I view masks A lot of times, whether I want to wear it or whether I believe it works or whatever. Doesn’t really matter if you do and you would prefer, I wear one and you being the general populace, then what’s the harm in me doing it? If staying six feet away? Whether I personally believe that’s true or not? If that is the socially acceptable norm, then why not do it? So, when you start looking at a show in Amsterdam, in Barcelona, in Orlando in Indianapolis, where and how are you going to design that booth? to like, I haven’t been to a trade show in a typical, like Matt from omega. It’s at a trade show in six or seven years. Right? The majority of my trade show work anymore is press. Right? And, you know, so my experience in a booth is a little different than most people’s anymore, because I’m not walking in trying to find a rep and you know, doing a little close conversation I’m doing a tour, we’re doing a, you know, whatever it is an interview in some way, shape or form? And like, how are we going to how would we shoot an interview? effectively in Heck, forget a 10 by 10, you know, in a 20 by 20 you How many? How many booths are set up to where we can show up with a camera person. Or we can put a set of sticks out, you know, that’s already six feet, give or take. That was the angles. And then I’m going to interview someone way over there and take up a 30-year booth for an interview. There are times that that that would not be a problem at all, depending on whose booth you’re in. right it is. But like, we’ve done in some of the bigger booths, which I don’t have to name who they are. We’ve done walking to her shoots, where we’ve got five, six handlers just trying to keep people out of the way we can actually move through the booth as we’re doing an interview. Yeah I get why they’re trying to do the show. I understand why they need to do the show. For a variety of reasons. I’m not hearing a ton of confidence from manufacturers about it. I’m not hearing a ton of confidence from most people about going to it. And, you know, take I’m trying to think what the numbers are on InfoComm 40,000 ish. 40,000. Yeah is it going to be a successful show of only 20,000 people attend? Will 20,000 people attend? even including exhibitors? I don’t know.

Bradford Benn

And the thing that that is, that is the unique wrinkle for me, is the new video displays, new loudspeakers, things that you can have to

Matt Scott

see. Yes, yep. And I’m with you,

Bradford Benn

you know, the, the I can expose myself to the risk for a day and see a thing or have eight days of exposed for us to see one a day. And it becomes an interesting statistics game at that point.

Matt Scott

Yeah, it’s something where, because we’ve talked about this a little bit internally on different things of you know, because when you start doing tracing, right, if you start paying attention to tracing, and even just thinking through how tracing works, right. And we had to do this extensively for some stuff at our church, where, you know, during a lot of this, we had to limit who came in for different things, because, well, I see X number of people as a rule in a day, I write X number of businesses, or homes in a day. What does my circle look like? versus someone else’s circle? Or versus, you know, somebody who services, these machines who’s in 25, buildings, public buildings, every day, we’ll know maybe they shouldn’t be coming out. So even internally, we’ve looked at a couple of things and gone. You know, we really should I should run up to Toronto to go see this device or this thing or that widget? Because there’s one in Toronto and go look at, well, how many people is that person been talking to you on a weekly basis? Yeah. And do I do that? Or do I have them just send me the demo, and I play with it? And, you know, I think the hard thing of any show is that unless you are a major player, you’re not going to get a speaker manufacturer to send you three models to play with, especially if you don’t buy from them already. Right? Like it. We’ve talked about that aspect of a business multiple times. I do like my house that worship business is almost exclusively consulting these days. We help churches solve their tech issues we recommend a litany of products that I’ve got hands on experience with, but I don’t buy anything, right in that vein that much anymore when I go to enter your, you know, console manufacturer, and I want to test that new desk that just came out, they’re not shipping me one, it doesn’t matter. We’re not this massive firm that they know. We don’t buy a thing from them ever. they’ll sell it to me. But I can’t return it. So that I got to try and sell it. That that’s where the shows are so fantastic and so effective. But as I said today, the upside isn’t there. Like, like you said, want it to be. That’s the hard thing is I really want it to be, but I can’t justify it.

Bradford Benn

And as you said, if you have to spend $2,000 a year on money to quarantine, in the piece of equipment, you really want to see costs $1,500 just buying it is cheaper.

Matt Scott

Yeah, especially because I can probably sell it. Yeah. Within a couple of weeks. Like it’s I don’t think I keep hearing that this is going to completely change the tradeshow industry, and I don’t believe it will. I don’t think it’ll be this massive shift. I do think it will mold the way trade shows are run. And I hope to see the virtual aspect continue. I hope to see the education be available, not in person. Because that’s been archaic. That you’ve got to fly halfway around the world to sit in on a class. There’s no method to record that. Especially in our industry. That’s what we are stinking do. As you now have me so boxing. Yep. That was your that was your whole goal, wasn’t it?

Bradford Benn

No, I was just looking for a good conversation that will make 10 go I can’t believe Matt said that. Yeah, that’s, that’s okay should we put in the disclaimer of you know, you and I are voicing our opinions and aren’t speaking for AVNation?

Matt Scott

Sure. Because we’re not.

Bradford Benn

Yeah, we’re not.

Matt Scott

Yeah, this is just such an opinion, this is a great opportunity for that tradeshow industry to continue to evolve. And I think if we view it that way, and we find a way to make the model work, and you find a way to capitalize on it, profit on it. Like I get it, that’s what you’re there for. And anyone who disagrees, doesn’t understand how to run a business, like shows are there to make the show runners money, like everything we do, to some degree is there to feed you. It’s okay. It’s cool.

Bradford Benn

Or coin operated?

Matt Scott

Yeah, there are some really good things that we can pull out of this. And that, you know, we talked about it all the time that if COVID did anything for us, it showed all of these clients in the corporate world that we’ve talked to for years about remote work, and video conferencing and, you know, heck, the court system, how you don’t I was dealing with a lawyer this morning. Today, finally, you can go speak to emotion in 15 minutes, which is fantastic. versus a year ago, when you as the lawyer had to show up, drive to the courthouse. Park, pay for parking, go through security. Get out of security. Go find a restaurant because it’s been an hour. Go find the courthouse, you’re supposed to be in the courtroom you’re in, go sit down, wait for your docket to be called. Could be two minutes could be four hours. Stand up, speak for five minutes to your docket. Sit down, leave. Don’t go back to the bathroom because you haven’t left the courtroom four hours. Go home, get back to the office, whatever. charge your client six hours of your billable time, because you can’t do anything. And the bailiffs won’t let you run a computer inside the courtroom. Right? versus now where you can sit in and in 15 minutes. You can speak to your case speak to your docket. That’s fantastic. They better not stop that. Yeah, the productivity has gone through the roof, which is awesome. We can figure out how to do this will not deviate. Are you in attending in person? in the future? Right? Yeah, there are, there are really good things we can pull out of this. As long as we’re aware of it. Because at the end of the day, no matter how good this is, and this is pretty good. I’ve got you up on a 16-inch screen. It’s essentially like you’re six feet apart from me at a table. Yeah, it’s really good. It’s no good experience. But I’d still rather be sitting around a table, eating dinner with you talking like this. We’re at that point where as good as digital is in person is still better. Yeah, and it will, it will be better for the foreseeable future. Come at me, all you people who think we can do this digitally.

Bradford Benn

I think there are certain things we can do digitally better than we can do in person. I would agree. And I think a lot of it is acceptance by the users, though, for instance, doing an online design review is very possible. But everyone has to buy in and look at the drawings ahead of time and come prepared with notes and all that stuff. And then having an online meeting is much harder, because people all talk at the same time. And it’s not always organized. And collaboration becomes difficult.

Matt Scott

Yeah, I will say that I actually did a design review this morning with a client. And we have done a bunch of virtual reviews in process. As we’ve progressed to the final. And I asked them, you know, do you want to you want to do this one, virtually, you want to do this one in person in your space? And they’re like, oh, if you can come out that be great. And you know, I kind of asked them at the end, you know, what was your take on doing it virtually versus in person? Why do you want to do this this last meeting in person? Like, well, one, we want to see you It’s been a while. That’d be nice to you know, now that we can kind of get out, let’s do it. I’m all good with that. I agree. Anything else? said well, as good as the digital was. There’s still that, you know, looking at the space, looking at the drawing, looking at the space, looking at the drawing, and being able to instantly ask you something, and had you been able to be there and go Yeah, you know, when you look at that in person. And like, again, we were fully digital, this was a full 3d render, we’re moving around, we’re, you know, investigating different angles and different things. Like, I wouldn’t want to do this just on paper the fact that you had, you know, not just the screenshots of it, but you had the model here so we can look at the model. And then look at the space. We didn’t get that from Digital yet. Like, yeah, I get it. There are in again, in this situation, we’re in the space, it’s not a true full conceptualization. Right I saw I saw your wheels turning.

Bradford Benn

Yeah, because like, for instance, for me, the projects I was working on, if going out to the space would be a pile of dirt and possibly a bulldozer. Exactly.

Matt Scott

Yes. No, I get that. But there still is. And I think part of it is also that, like we’ll have to circle back to this conversation in a year. Not to say we shouldn’t have one before that, but of circle back to this in a year. If the rest of 2021 gets somewhat back to normal. Because I think right now, the huge desire to go to go to a show, to do a design review in person is partially because you want to go to the show in person and partially because you want to see the design review in person. But it’s also the fact that, you know, again, especially up here it’s been a stay-at-home order for the last six weeks people want to get out. They miss people. They miss interacting with someone other than their grocery clerk. who they want now they know? But yeah, beforehand, they did not know. You’re seeing like I’m talking to neighbors outside that not that I don’t ever talk to. But it’s the Hey, how are you? Good to see you. And now it’s a 20 A minute conversation. because nobody’s seen anybody. So that desire to have a face to face, quote unquote, real interaction is greater. Come, come summertime get through fall, you know, come back to it. And we’ll see. But right now, is not, the feeling is not much different than how this how an interaction would feel in March. Were up here typically, you know, during the winter, most people hunker down a little bit more, right? You’re not seeing people aren’t outside cutting grass. They are for you. But up here, they shovel snow, that’s all they do you don’t always have those huge interactions in those big conversations, because you’re inside in the winter Chrome, come spring, when you first start to see the Robins or the tree starting, but everybody gets outside. And you know, in the neighborhood, there’s people everywhere. And you know, Hey, good to see you. I haven’t seen you since December. Right now, that’s kind of the feeling. And that’s part of the feeling that I feel with trade shows is that there’s such a desire to see people again, that whether they think it’s safe or not, or what have you. The big push is there from at least the attendees, because I just haven’t seen anybody in forever. haven’t gone anywhere. Like, I this is the longest I haven’t been on a plane in. Gosh, 1015 years.

Bradford Benn

Yeah, this is I have no idea what to do with myself. Like, this

Matt Scott

is the longest I haven’t crossed the border. Since I was a kid. And a young kid. Like it. I would cross the border once minimum once every other month for something.

Bradford Benn

Well, now that you are middle age, it takes you longer to get across the border. Oh, yeah.

Matt Scott

Yeah, the stroller. The walkers really slowing me down.

Bradford Benn

But oh, speaking of seeing each other? Yes. I know, we’ve been talking for quite a bit. And it’s been very enjoyable and lots of places we could go and still split off. Maybe I’ll have you back before next year, that way. But if people want to find you, or your company or your enemies, your friends, where can people find you?

Matt Scott

I don’t believe I have any enemies at the moment.

Bradford Benn

Oh, yeah, you do.

Matt Scott Send me a list. Yeah, if you want to connect with me, you can find me on Twitter at Matt de Scott. I’m on. You know, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, yada, yada, yada. Mostly under that name kind of bounces around a little bit depending on where it is. You can Google me. I’m sort of easy to find on the Google so you can find me on av nation.tv You can find me at omega audio video calm. Yeah. So yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

004-Matt Scott Part 1

Talking with Matt Scott - Part 1 of 2

Bradford Benn sat down with Matt D. Scott in the beginning of March for a discussion. This discussion was not focused solely on AV. They covered topics from being a business owner to the impact of social media to how one defines themselves without talking about their job. The conversation went much deeper than expected. They spoke for over 150 minutes, that is 2.5 hours. Needless to say the episode has been edited for length and content.

Matt is a fellow AVNation board member. He’s also the host of ResiWeek on AVNation, as well as being the owner of Omega Audio Video in London, Ontario, Canada. He also has been a CEDIA board member.

Under the media is a transcript of the conversation if you would prefer to read the content.

Project Bradford
Project Bradford
004-Matt Scott Part 1

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Bradford Benn  00:40

Now comes the harder questions.

Matt Scott  01:19

The harder questions. Alright, let’s go.

Bradford Benn  01:22

Who are you and don’t define yourself by your job?

Matt Scott  01:28

Can I define myself as a middle-aged white Canadian?

Bradford Benn  01:31

Yes, that would be appropriate rather plain and boring, like most middle-aged white guys are

Matt Scott  01:40

You see that’s tough, because it is amazing how often you tie in your job to your identity. I would always argue that I try not to do that. But now that you asked me the question. I’m not going to say I’m at a loss, but it is tough. It’s because that is such a large part of your life. How would you describe yourself? Let me let me flip the tables on you.

Bradford Benn  02:13

I would describe myself as someone who is a business owner, which is correct. Yes, I realized that’s close to saying what my job is. But it does, like you said, take up a lot of it, and I am someone who tries to make the world a little better and spread knowledge. Because right now that’s kind of my big thing is, you know, I’m seeing how many people don’t know and that sounds bad to say don’t know what I consider common history. But I’m starting to realize like you I know your age. Yes, your middle age, but you probably weren’t alive during Skylab.

Matt Scott  03:01

Skylab. No,

Bradford Benn  03:04

Exactly. I was alive. And I know about it. I was alive during during Skylab. I know that history.. And there are other people who like all the space shuttle is cool and it’s so easy to go to space. And I’m like, No, no, no space is hard. People ask me, “what do you mean Canada has a space agency? I’m like you don’t know about the CSA and Canada arm built by Spar Aerospace, and Chris Hadfield. So I’m trying to spread knowledge. I don’t like the term social justice warrior because I think it has a bad connotation. But I very much am aware of, I come from a privileged place. I’m a white man in America, that is making money at a you know, is comfortable. And that’s a very privileged place. And that’s where I do stuff like, you want me on a panel, there has to be underrepresented people. As I’m turning out my own podcast, I have underrepresented people on at a higher rate than I have typical people. I believe that, you know, lead by example, and share my knowledge and experience with new people. So that you know, hopefully the world is a little better after I leave, not because I left but because I’ve made a positive impact.

Matt Scott  04:42

But I’d like to say that I identify with a lot of that and that’s a large part of my goal. IMy wife and I were talking the other day, I made mention of the fact that I’ve got, if you don’t know, I’ve got three kids, one’s about it, my oldest is about turned six. And one of the hardest things like I’ve run a business for, , almost 20 years this year. And, you know, we’ve been through a lot of entertaining things, and a lot of vertical changes and all kinds of crazy things that happen when you run a business for that long. But I would argue that the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do is work on raising my kids, and trying to teach them how to be better than I am. But also help them understand how the world works, and what’s there for them, but how to do it with grace and compassion. I look at life, and it is shockingly short. How long have you and I known each other?

Bradford Benn

Ten years?

Matt Scott

It seems like not that long, but at the same time, it’s 10 years. Now, you look at how quickly time goes by. and all of the stuff of 2020 has, I want to say almost made me more introspective of just life and you know, who I am and what I tried to do. And it’s something where it’s really easy to get caught up in your job, which is why I love the question. Because it is so easy to say, I’m an integrator. I do this and I do that. But it’s hard to separate yourself from your job without sounding like you’re reading a postcard. And I think that is the that’s the genius of that question is it forces you to look at who you think you are? Without? And at the same time? Because as soon as you said it, like in the pre show? We’ve been talking for an hour and almost 20 minutes now. So in that that early hour of conversation, it’s how do you describe yourself without sounding like a headstone reading?

Bradford Benn  07:58

I say this, with truth of you can say, I am a father of three. That’s a pretty big role for people one understand it. Yeah. Or a mother of six, or, you know, a brother or a son.

Matt Scott  08:21

I think that, and obviously it differs depending on who you are. But a huge portion of my life, even within work is based around my family. Like I’ve always been asked why I don’t because like, like everybody, or I would assume most people you get offered or hear about positions or opportunities. And I’ve had a fair share, I don’t know. I’ve had a couple of things and every time it comes up, and usually as that conversation changes, it becomes, well, why didn’t you investigate that further and like, well, the whole point of me owning a business is not necessarily because I want to work for myself or I want to deal with the headaches of that. It’s so that like this Thursday, I can make sure that my schedule is 100% clear. So I can take the kids skiing, because we only have so much time to ski up here. That always becomes a bigger part of, at least in my life, my what my job looks like, I do my job so I can have the freedom to do what I either want or need to do with my family and whether it’s you know, helping my parents out with something, helping my sisters or doing something with my wife and my kids.

Bradford Benn  09:59

Not a bad thing. I do think it is a hard question. Like you said, I know I, I did a whole bunch of soul searching when I got laid off last year, thanks to a pandemic of what do I want to do? And very similar reasons for why I decided to start my own company. I want to have fun. It can be seen by my attitude at times, but I also want to be able to go, you know, like you’re taking the kids skiing on Thursday, Jennifer and I are going to the Tampa Zoo on Thursday. Why? Because she starts a new job next week.

Matt Scott  10:38

Oh, congratulations, Jennifer.

Bradford Benn  10:48

Same thing of the, I can take this off. And, you know, I know you and I have talked about it of the false urgency of now of being a business owner of everyone thinks they can call you at nine o’clock at night, and you’re just there. And I’m like, nope, my phone has an off button.

Matt Scott  11:13

I will say, as a small business owner, that is by far the hardest trick to crack, is to even just bring yourself to it, like I looked at today, and had, essentially two originally scheduled things. Plus, of course, this and had two other things come up. And in the last thing before this, we discovered an additional issue that had to be dealt with, somewhat urgently. Iit’s that being there, and knowing that, you kind of have to handle that, you can’t pawn that off. It’s, it’s everyone looks at, when you are in charge of yourself, I guess, about how awesome it must be. And it is, at times

Matt Scott  12:24

But it is it’s those moments of its knowing that you have the freedom to go to the zoo, because you want to, and you can schedule it. But also knowing that there may be that day where you just have to deal with something. And there’s no option to not deal with something, there’s no one to go above and say, Hey, you know, it’s knowing that that buck stops with you, is entertaining and challenging all at the same time. And it gets even more complicated when you have employees. And you know that, there’s going to be that moment where it’s like,  if we don’t sell this job, I’m not getting paid, because I got to pay my people. And those are the those are the really entertaining sides of running a business. And if all you’ve ever done is be self-employed. I’m not I’m not being negative on that one. But it is different when you’re self-employed versus when you have employees. You know, we’re both in those situations. Those are tough. And those make life a little bit more entertaining.

Bradford Benn  13:47

Yeah, I think, you know, since we both are AVNation, peoples, We were hiring Tim as our first full time employee. It changed a lot of the decisions we were making.

Matt Scott  14:01

Oh god it went from and don’t get me wrong, it’s still fun. Or Yeah, it was still fun, even when we made that that shift. But you know, you want to talk about the rubber hitting the road. Yeah. It’s all fun and games until all of a sudden, somebody relies on you. And especially like, my wife relies on me, the kids rely on me. The if we had a pet, the pet relied on me to buy food for the pet. So the pet could eat. That’s one thing, but their family. Right? So it’s like, you take that on knowing that’s how it works It’s part of the deal. But when you have employees, especially when you hire that first one, and Gosh, I remember that day. You bring them on and in Instantly you go to, you know, we got to provide for this individual and go holy crap we got to provide for this individual. And then your brain starts going and you go, if we don’t provide for this individual, they don’t eat. They don’t have heat. They can’t put gas in their vehicle. Oh, crap.

Bradford Benn  15:46

Well, yeah. But like I said, when we started this, this is that’s kind of what I want to have is you and I always have fun on a podcast, especially when I’m taking over Tim’s show. And you’re just taking me on.

Matt Scott  16:01

those are the best ones to be on. Yeah, like, This is fun. Don’t get me wrong.

Bradford Benn  16:04

But this is a long form conversation, because I think that’s an important thing. Because now, you know, our listener, both of them will now know more about you and realize, you know, a little more about me and kind of the stuff that I think in social media, and in today’s lack of going out and hanging out with people at trade shows gets lost, but also, just, I like having the conversation. I’m loving people listening. And yeah, we got a little heavy, but it wasn’t planned.

Matt Scott  16:44

It just happened. And yeah, I would agree. And I thank you for doing a long form. Because I know having now hosted ResiWeek for like 260 something episodes?

Bradford Benn  17:01

Yeah, like five years.

Matt Scott  17:02

Yeah, like it’s crazy. There are many times because we try to stick to that 30 minute format, right? And there are many times where we’ll jump into something. And it I don’t wanna say you could talk for three hours, but you probably could.

Bradford Benn  17:19

Well, you and I did it. When it was you me and uncle Richie.

Matt Scott  17:23

Yeah. Yeah, it was, gosh, 55 minutes. Yeah. And we really just scratched the surface of it. And sure, you know, was there. Was there just some fun banter back and forth that times Yeah. But you know, I think it’s, I think that’s something that’s lost, especially in the industry of there’s not enough conversate there is so much derisive noise that is camouflaged as conversation and you see it on Twitter a ton. There’s lots of back and forth, then there’s a ton of I’m going to defend my position here is my stake my flag on planting over whatever piece of technology thing you want to discuss. But it’s the longer conversations that make sense. You can’t understand where someone comes from. in 140 or 240 characters, or your missive you post on Facebook, which is why I try not to post missive on Facebook.

Bradford Benn  18:43

I don’t have Facebook. It was hard, but it was like Yeah, because I don’t know what’s going on with a lot of my friends now. Yeah. And people will have call and go Hey, what’s going on? I’ll just check out what’s going on Facebook. I don’t have IFacebook.

Matt Scott  19:02

It It is it is odd how connected we are yet disconnected. If that makes sense.

Bradford Benn  19:12

Yeah, it’s kind of superficial.

Matt Scott  19:14

Which we always knew. We always knew that social media was like that. And, you know, gosh, Instagram is one of those. Now I’m really sounding like a middle aged white guy.

Bradford Benn  19:32

I’m fully with you. And I’ve, I’ve worked at theme parks where people complain because garbage cans have been moved, and it changes the Instagram photo.

Matt Scott  19:58

I will say We were at, I’ve never been so disappointed with the social media life, if you will, then we were down for my father in law’s funeral in late October, and we’re down in Florida. And we had one day where we could do something with the kids so we went to the beach. And we’re down in Delray, go to the beach and we were leaving the beach after being there for a couple hours to go to burger fi maybe, to go get shakes and fries for the kids, and as we’re walking up the beach, and going through the little path through the mangroves, as you come around the corner, there’s these two, probably 14 year old girls, and they have their phone up on the little railing piece. And they’re doing some Tic Toc thing. And completely oblivious to everyone trying to walk past them, ourselves included, to get either to the beach or off the beach. And it’s like, again, I don’t feel I’m that old until that moment comes up. And it’s like, Where are your parents?

Bradford Benn  21:16

But um, you know, I’m I’m gonna get the the Joe Way. retweet on this was we’re gonna name drop on hi  but the fact that he had the house fire and how fast and we all kind of go, hey let’s help.

Matt Scott  21:37

That’s the flip. You watch you watch that outpouring you watch the support for, you know, a random person on Twitter who posts something that was, you know, hard to post. Yeah. And you see the encouraging messages, you see stuff. Like, I know, even myself, I’ll, and I don’t post a ton on anything, really. But I’ll have random people reach out like, Hey, I haven’t heard from you while you’re doing okay. Which we are not like you have my cell number, you can send me a text and say something like that. Or we can have a conversation. But there’s people that I’ve met a handful of times who don’t have my direct number, who will reach out over Twitter or Instagram or Facebook or what have you. And that is the that is the plus side. We are friends because of Twitter.

Bradford Benn  22:38

I agree. It’s a plus side. But I’ll also say, it’s freaked me out on occasion, when I’ve been in a trade show. And people have come up and started talking to me, like they know me, and they’ve met me because of how much I’ve posted on Twitter or done on AVNation and stuff. Yeah. And while that’s nice, it kind of makes you take that pause of the what’s the difference between someone you know, online, and a real person? And is that a problem now that not everyone understands? Just because you follow me, doesn’t mean we’re friends.

Matt Scott  23:18

And also doesn’t mean you know me. I’ve had people come up to me, and I’m not sure. I probably shouldn’t say this, but I’ll say it anyways. I’ve had people come up to me, and, you know, at a show and, and we chat for a few minutes. And as they’re walking away, like, you know, hey, I thought you were a jerk. Because of the way I see you act online or tease Tim. Right. And everybody loves Tim. So if you tease him and you don’t understand the relationship that Tim and I have, or you and I and Tim have, there’s a lot of we, we have a couple people that you know, you just you tease different people for whatever reason. It shocked me that somebody would come up who I didn’t know and had never met. Like, I thought you were like a huge jerk. Like me? I’m nothing if not polite. Bbecause I’m trying to make a joke out of it. Because it got awkward really fast. And they’re like, No, no, no, just everything I see with you online. You just you seem like a jerk. It’s like, but do I? You start you start looking back and thinking about what you do. And, you know, wondering, am I teasing Joe Way too, too much. Am I teasing Kev too much? Am I teasing Tim too much.? Because that perception that persona is something that you don’t control. I think that’s the really, really tough part. Because I don’t think I’m a jerk and I don’t want to be a jerk. But maybe I am. I don’t know. Or at least it was through their eyes.

Bradford Benn  25:15

I’m in the same boat. There are people who think I’m a jerk and a pompous person. I know, for me, at least it’s changed what I posted how often I post and I’m not sure if that’s good or bad. But I’ve also seen people take online way too seriously and some of this stuff gets a little out of hand. I’m not gonna come to this argument, just because you invited me, doesn’t mean I’m going to show up.

Matt Scott  26:03

So we have a rule in in omega. Where if we have to have a dare I say, a confrontation with a client. Right? Or if we’re dealing with a specific issue, we are not having that conversation over phone. Or likely in person, we are doing that conversation over email. Because I want it documented. We’ve been in too many situations where someone was upset and they said stop something or they approve something, to take it to the other end. And then all of a sudden, they’ve forgotten that they approved said thing so when the bill showed up; It was I remember that. And even though we had it documented, and we had a signature, and we had all this stuff, it was so loose, in that, you know, move this that over here, sign, right, that they all of a sudden wanted to debate it or if they were unhappy with the bill it was we’re definitely debating that that thing. So we went to a position where all of a sudden, everything we do in that realm has to be signed off via email. Or you have to get an actual like, we’re not handwriting a change order. We will handwrite it, we will then send you a digital copy. Yeah, a produced change order that you must sign in and return before anything happens.

Bradford Benn  27:36

It’s like I’ve kind of been joking for 20 plus years. If it’s not in writing, did it really happen? Everyone is likepictures or it didn’t happen. I’m like, text or it didn’t happen. Not in writing. It didn’t happen.

Matt Scott  27:51

I somewhat long for the time where a handshake meant something.. Again, I’m really old.

Bradford Benn  28:08

I did an entire attraction on a handshake is a change order to a design built and installed. I used to get change orders like make this room sound better, not to exceed $1,600.

Matt Scott  28:28

I miss those times.. But at the same time, I get why it’s changed for multiple reasons. But the hardest thing with even you know, doing those conversations over email or having debates online, is that nobody gets context. Right? There’s no, there’s no context. There’s no visual cues. There’s none of the typical things that if you and I were hanging out in a hotel lobby, at infoComm, teasing each other or teasing Tim, for example. Anyone who was there in that circle, or sitting around the table, would totally understand that we are joking.

Bradford Benn  29:23

Because we are all laughing together.

Matt Scott  29:25

Yeah, we’re all laughing together .No one is laughing at anyone.. But online, you don’t. You don’t see that. I’ve used this example a couple of times and hopefully he won’t mind but I tease Kev a lot. And I was harassing him one day over something online and I had someone DM me, who I know peripherally, and they were calling me out for my outrageous behavior over teasing Kev. I instantly apologize to them that they were offended at that. And so I am sorry. I’ll lay off I guess it had to explain that. You know, Kevin, I are friends and well, we are teasing each other online. He’s teasing me about Toni Braxton. I’m teasing him about his shoes. We have a backdoor conversation through the about the jokes we’re telling and it’s not a big deal. But on the outside, not knowing myself or Kev, they thought we had taken it too far. So hey, I applaud them for, you know, thinking it went too far in trying to call me out on it. But that’s the downside, or one of the downsides of social.

Bradford Benn  31:03

I agree with you. It’s happened to me, it’s happened to you. And it also I think, is one of the things a lot of people have learned through this pandemic, is like you and I, and Tim, and a lot of these podcast recordings, we do as video, and you’re very few people watch the videos, I’m not complaining, Ingest it in the media, you feel best. But if you and I weren’t able to see each other, some of the pauses would be cut off the body language and all of that stuff. Twitter not having that, or Facebook not having that real time feedback, because it’s the half duplex conversation with a huge time lag. Yeah, it’s like, you know, trying to talk to the Mars Rover, you can send a message to Percy, but he’s not going to answer for another 14 minutes. Having that and understanding that is a huge issue.

Matt Scott  32:08

It’s the same as your typical debate over whatever it is, it doesn’t matter whether it’s politics, whether it’s personal, whether it’s technology, it doesn’t matter. When you when debating was quote unquote, debating, it was trying to answer what you said. So if you and I are going to debate, canon versus Nikon a true debate would be me, listening to your comments on canon, for example, and then trying to refute them what you just said with information about Nikon and why that’s different. But especially with social it’s, I’m just for the most part waiting for you to finish. So I can then respond with whatever I want to say. And it it continually reminds me of because we’ll see debates over AV over IP or AV as a Service or whatever thing you want to throw in there in our in our Twitter work world. But it’s just noise back and forth most of the time. There’s not a Point CounterPoint.

Bradford Benn  33:24

I don’t know anyone who’s ever had their mind changed by Twitter.

This is where we ended to go to Part Two.

001-Melody Austin

Interview with Melody Austin

I spoke with Melody Austin a Show Producer in the Themed Entertainment industry. We talked about representation, how the processes work, and what she does as producer. Below is the video and audio as well as the transcript.

Project Bradford
Project Bradford
001-Melody Austin

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[00:00:18] Bradford: Melody, who are you? Can you introduce yourself to my audience, both of the listeners?

[00:00:25] Melody Austin: Sure, hey, Bradford. My name is Melody Austin. I am a Creative Producer, Project Manager, and we have formerly worked together on a very big project. I’m just happy to be here. I’m happy to be here and spend some time with you.

[00:00:48] Bradford: I’m looking forward to it. Now comes the harder part. Everyone can describe themselves by their job. Who are you, not using your job?

[00:01:00] Melody: That is actually a really good question. Because I especially think in this industry, our jobs are so intertwined with our lives that, I will say, being at a break between projects has really gotten me back in touch to, not being so work centered. [laughs] It’s been really nice. I liked that question.

I would say that I am a very discerning and fun person, which, there’s where the lighting tends to kind of throw in there, but I do really find the fun in things. I like being a nerd. I’ve been very blessed to have some really fun jobs. It all comes from because I like being curious.

I just had this natural ability and it’s always been in my personality just to figure things out about people, and read the room and read the sign sorts of things. I would just say that, that just adds to my level of just finding fun and wonder in the everyday and then an escapism. An escapist, is probably the best word to say. I’m a true escapist. I love being a nerd.

[00:02:19] Bradford: Sweet. What’s your nerdom? What’s your jam? Are kids still saying that?

[00:02:29] Melody: [laughs] I’m sure some of them are. I’ve had to ask. I recently worked on a project over the holidays where I was around people, much younger than I, and I had to get a couple of things explained to me. I think they still say jam, Bradford. I think that’s still a thing, but, oh man. See, I’m on the collectic nerd too, which is horrible. I really love some anime. I cannot stop with the anime love. I can’t stop with the Pokemon love. The Pokemon love is pretty hardcore. I just really like fun interesting little things here and there.

[00:03:14] Bradford: I was going to ask what’s your job, but I have a hunch you’re probably in that lovely pause, now that our project has been paused. As Melody said, we worked together for 18 months on the same project that got an indefinite pause. We’ve both been doing other things. I know over the holidays, you did some work. What do you do, when you do?

[00:03:41] Melody: I am usually hired to be a producer on projects. I have tried to build my skillset more in the project management side, because, as you know, different projects call for different things. Producer and project manager fall together pretty closely, depending on what kind of project you have and what kind of company. I was really fortunate, I got to work with a smaller company here in town, BMR productions. Brian is a really interesting, creative because he’s a great businessman and I do not know anyone else who’s quite as busy in the theme entertainment industry as them. [laughs]

We knew each other from back in the SeaWorld days and I was his executive producer, of the holiday project, that he had over at the Gaylord Palms with the Snow Factory. It was great. It was [inaudible 00:04:42] operations, so we ran it. Which was really fun. [laughs] Which is a piece of my background from a while ago that kind of led me to think entertainment. It was fun to get back to just operating something with people, because one of the things I loved about the theme parks and events and stuff is just really getting to know these interesting people that make it up.

The guys that come they’re great, they’re awesome. I’m glad they’re having a good time, but it’s the people that run these things every day that are real heroes and have some really interesting stories behind them and where they’re going, where they’ve been. I cover different kinds of things. It’s been interesting to learn different people’s stories, again, and remember how we’re all in this boat together, in this industry. [laughs] As cliche as it sounds.

[00:05:36] Bradford: You said producer, executive producer. I know what you do, because we’ve been doing this. What do you do for the lay people? Saying, “Go get donuts,” is not an appropriate answer, although that is true on occasion.

[00:05:55] Melody: Yes, I have donuts. As a producer, the funny thing is, it’s the most objective job, I feel in anything on a creative project, but a big part of what you’re supposed to be is, a person that holds the vision and keeps it consistent. You yourself don’t always have to be the one to keep it together, but you have to make sure everybody else that you hired does. That’s probably the best way I can explain it. Have you seen that movie, The High Note with Tracee Ellis Ross?

[00:06:32] Bradford: Yes.

[00:06:35] Melody: I thought it was really interesting, because the whole movie is about the girl trying to become a music producer and all these people keep telling her what her job is and what it means. They all have very different answers to that. It’s the hard part about the whole producer title and what we do. Because it is pretty subjective sometimes, even though if you’re over budget or something’s not on time, it is 100% your fault. That’s about it.


[00:07:00] Bradford: That is a loaded question, because, as Melody said, everyone does it differently and everyone defines their role differently. When we were working together, Melody’s team and other teams and, Susan’s team and people like that, each person had their own style and their own method. I think it was driven as much by the team as it is by the producer themselves, because we definitely had interesting people on our team. The immortal words of David Byrne and the talking heads, “Lord, how did I get here?” How did you get here besides, me going, “Hey, Melody, you want to be my first guest”?

[00:07:48] Melody: [laughs] Oh, gosh. How did I get here? I guess, when it comes to getting here, I’m originally from New Orleans. It’s funny, because my parents still don’t really even understand what I do. I keep trying to tell them, like, “Just tell your friends that I build roller coasters.” They still don’t know what to tell their friends. I don’t know what else to tell them. [laughs] I cannot hear out of that whole being curious, and just really enjoying how many fun. I have been told I’m pretty personable, in my personality. Just my personality and stuff like that outside of work.

I made my way to Florida after college, because it just seemed like a cool place to be. I really enjoyed the theme park industry, even though I studied journalism. I wasn’t quite sure how that was going to work into it, but three years I was a digital– online marketing was a big thing when I first got out of college. That’s how old I am. That whole content creation skillset, led me to being– I was a full-time freelancer for eight or seven years. I worked in marketing and I did a lot of freelance writing. I did a lot of blogs. I did a lot of social content.

It’s a lot of strategy, a lot of creative strategists, and running campaigns. In the meantime, while I was doing that, I also worked in production over at Universal and entertainment. I really liked the production world. I liked the marketing world. It seemed like the more I learned about themed entertainment and what that actually meant it’s a nice little marriage of using creative strategy and just being an organized person.

I swear I got my first job in design because I just came really organized. I knew who I was and I knew how to explain my skills to how they would help that person. Even though I had no idea what to do in design. They translate it well and I got hired on the spot. [chuckles] The rest was history that was over with SeaWorld back in the day.

That was right after they had built Mako. I was there from the Mako era to when Sesame Street Land opened. That’s when I was working over with their team. Then I ended up over at Universal again working full-time where I worked on the VelociCoaster. That’s about to open up, and I also got to work with you on our project.

[00:10:34] Bradford: That we’re not allowed to talk about still. I have no idea what you’re getting into but I knew what I was getting into.

[00:10:40] Melody: I don’t know. I’m just like, “Well, I can’t embarrass Bradford on this podcast.” That was my whole goal today. I’m like, “I’m just not going to embarrass Bradford on this podcast and try to look professional of some kind.”


[00:10:56] Bradford: That’s the blooper. [crosstalk]

[00:11:01] Melody: Luckily, I remember how to put on with my normal makeup and not my goth-looking makeup because, like, “Where all of my not black colors?” I found them. Who knew I found that box? I found that box. [laughs]

[00:11:16] Bradford: I was like, “I should take my T-shirt off and put on my collared shirt look presentable. Oh, I forgot to shave.”

[00:11:23] Melody: Oh, it’s fine. If you’re guy it’s pretty easy. Even though it’s just like, “Woah, what can you actually wear?” With the whole the camera angles now with the TVs, it’s just like, “What? I don’t know what anybody’s going to be looking at.” I kept it to my thermal in Florida, because that made sense.

[00:11:45] Bradford: Yes, I think a lot of people come into this industry thinking, “I’m going to work at a theme park. It’s fun and games. All I have to do is dream up, help people get to have fun.” In reality, we spend a lot more time of dreaming up ways people can injure themselves and trying to stop them from injuring themselves.

[00:12:04] Melody: Yes, because they’re very persistent about this. It’s like it’s their mission when they come in the door.

[00:12:11] Bradford: Yes. I’m like, “Why would you want to stand up on a roller-coaster?” Florida, never mind, I get it now. [chuckles]

[00:12:20] Melody: Back to the question. [chuckles]

[00:12:22] Bradford: We’ll go back to the questions. Besides having these lovely online meetings that we had for nine months during the virus, during the pandemic, how do you interface or use AV, in your job, in your development? Because I can explain what I think you do but I figure it’s more fun for people to hear from you.

[00:12:53] Melody: Oh, gosh, it’s really funny because when I was a butler, my major was Electronic Journalism. You learn pretty much everything about a newsroom and how to run a board and stuff like that. I remember I took one audio class and I really liked that professor. He was one of the Beatles. I’m not really sure everything that happened in that class, because he definitely was rock and roll the whole time. It was pretty fun.

I had a very deep appreciation for people who understood what was going on, because I’m just like, “I understand the importance of this. It is quite complicated.” Sometimes trying to say it back, I’m not quite sure. It was fun trying to learn about it here and there, but video was always been a one thing that’s followed me growing up. Especially being someone who grew up with the Internet and social media.

Back in the ‘90s, they were like, “Video is the future,” and they were right. To the point where people have to ban it from their kids because it’s ruining the family system, I guess. [chuckles] Have you with kids watch too much YouTube. I guess, how we interface is you just see it every day because really just comes up with these meetings. It just sounds really stupid and basic, but lighting can make everything. It can make some really old ugly look and scenic from 10 years ago look like brand new and fresh and interesting.

[00:14:46] Bradford: Let me ask you, besides being an all-around great guy who sits in the meetings and makes you laugh at inopportune times, what can they lead people do to make your job easier and to help us succeed as we move forward in the world, hopefully back to themed entertainment, but just in what you do?

[00:15:20] Melody: As producer, there’s always a million people talking to you, and this person has an opinion, that person has an opinion, but the more someone can really be an expert about something, and explain it in the simplest of ways possible. Because I always believe if I can understand something, then it’s probably the right thing to do.

I just think it gets– so people’s idea of AV and when you really try to think about the intricacies and how it all works and how to make it work well, it can get overwhelming for people who aren’t really in it. I say, people who are skilled, the more that they can help others understand to take some of that mystery out or that overwhelmingness out really is the big key. Because one, it helps build trust, but two it also helps empower people to understand your industry better.

That’s the key that this industry that we use every day and we really require. Though people don’t know much about it unless you’ve really just been thrown into the snake pit of cords and things and you come on the other side with a pretty light. I think diversity too is a big thing about the AV world. I really wish there was more of a gateway into it. How did you get started in AV? You wanted to play with lights and video? You just wanted to? Something had to have sparked that.

[00:17:02] Bradford: My grandfather was an electrical engineer. He worked on various space things. I just got hooked. To me, it was, “This is the fun stuff.” I had a Fisher Price turntable that actually played real albums, not toy albums. I figured out, “You can do fun stuff with this,” then I got a tape deck. That lasted around a day before I broke it. It just kept going.

I actually probably one of the weird ones that “This is actually really close to what I want to do.” I actually was recruited to go to college for Technical Theatre. It’s what I wanted to do. I did it in high school. I just always like that. I can’t explain why. It’s like, “Why do some people like strawberry ice cream?” Besides the fact that they’re mutants, it’s just what they like.

[00:18:16] Melody: Strawberry ice cream is the best. You shut your mouth.

[00:18:20] Bradford: [chuckles] I’ve been in it, as long as I can remember. I remember learning, “Unplug the amplifier before you hook up a speaker because you will scare the pee out of yourself.” I was seven when I did that.

[00:18:35] Melody: [chuckles] That’s pretty cool. I wish more people knew it and were into it and thought of it. Because I’ve only heard of people wanting to be a music producer. Everybody wants to learn how to use a soundboard. Nowadays, I guess, kids have more technology in their hands so maybe they’re going to be more into it. I feel the market could really expand if more people had an interest in doing it.

It’s like how people started getting into STEM with women and African Americans that kind of thing. I wish just, in general, AV had a way of getting more out into young people and just helping them understand that this is something that could be really interesting. It’s more hands-on, it’s not like having to go to school and learn books and stuff like that. It’s more of a technical skill that’s really useful.

I just feel it is the thing, all the themed entertainment, us that are already into it don’t try to help encourage other people to look into this field or navigate people or encourage people that might have a knack or a skill or something like that and we don’t do it ourselves. Our industry is going to die out, because people aren’t going to really be into it or they’re not going to know what to do if they are interested.

I feel it’d be useful for the future of projects and things like that, and especially for producers is just being able to make sure that these experts are out there passing on their information or really helping to build up that kind of an industry. Because it’s really a pain when you can’t find somebody who knows what they’re talking about. It really is. It just makes the project so much worse and it makes our job a lot easier. If I can just go to someone and know that you know what you’re talking about, this will be fine.

[00:20:32] Bradford: The diversity in the industry and getting younger people involved is getting to be a problem. People are working on it. For instance, as you were talking about, you want someone who knows what they’re doing. The big challenge is a lot of the stuff we do hasn’t been done before, so you have to figure it out.

Like you said, everything is in their hand on a YouTube phone of “I can look at everything,” it starts to become the challenge. Like you said, it doesn’t take a degree. You and I both work with people with PhDs, and they didn’t understand the actual application and physically, all the connections. It’s good how do we get people involved.

[00:21:28] Melody: Yes, it’s true. Representation is everything.

[00:21:37] Bradford: I was to ask you, if you think VR and AR, virtual reality and an augmented reality, are going to be the next generation of the theme park industry, that’s probably an easier question for you.

[00:21:52] Melody: It is. It’s an interesting question though. I think it can be when the time is right. That’s a hard way of putting it, but I think now is the time where you have to explore it but the payoff for that it’s probably not going to be fairly quick and fairly soon. I worked on a VR project with Battle for Eire, which is at Busch Gardens, Williamsburg. It’s really successful. People come and see it. They really enjoy it. They have a great experience on it.

If we go lift on a simulator, which kind of really helps it with the VR and stuff too, we didn’t try to go and do anything too crazy. When you go and try and put something on a coaster or something like that, I don’t know if VR really belongs on rollercoasters, necessarily.

In the right setting, with the right people working on it, it really could be the future. The time has to be right in both the industry that’s making it and for the guests too. Anything that would try and come up fairly soon might be harder because COVID right now, where people are, “Don’t touch me.” Also, people don’t care about that as much it seems.

Maybe it’s not a problem for the people doing it, but I think it’s a lot of what is to come and who’s going to be making it is really what we’ll see. You have to start now to try and make it pay off for you in the next 10 years or something like that. Now is the time to explore it and really invest into it.

[00:23:37] Bradford: Go into VR, AR. How do you make it so that people don’t sit at home and just do it at home on their Sony PlayStation or their Xbox or their Oculus or pick your VR engine of choice, instead of doing that get people through the turnstile?

[00:23:59] Melody: It’s really the amount of immersion you can put around it. My headphones at home can only do so much even if you have a really nice one, but if you put them in a really immersive environment where they forget about– they’re not going to just go to something because it’s VR. They’re going to go to something because of a full-on immersive experience.

Disney showed that immersing people as much as they can from the very beginning as soon as they can to the end with a rise of resistance, which is not a VR or AR technology. You add that level of immersion plus you added some VR something on top of it, and even took the immersion a little bit further. People would still probably be lining up for it just the way that you still can’t get a ticket to rise or resistance, even in the midst of COVID.

It’s the theme and it’s the experience that people want and what it’s tied to people really care about. It has to be tied to the right thing. Again, BioFire is an original IP. It’s something we’ve completely made up, and it’s pretty successful. I would say if people were really invested into the experience that they’re having, it could pay off as long as it’s done right.

[00:25:18] Bradford: Do you think part of it is the communal experience of going to a park and experience this with 3,000 of your closest friends or even 30 of your closest friends on an attraction versus sitting at home in your living room with your dog barking at you going, “Why are you swinging lightsabers like you’re battling someone?”

[00:25:46] Melody: I’m not sure this is exactly what you’re asking, but this is how I take that question is that, the timing has to be right, and theme parks where we’re not trying to do everything for 1,000 people at one time. If it’s something that’s more intimate, that takes less people at a time to do it, it can pay off for parks, because people will still do all the other stuff while they’re waiting their turn and they’ll be willing to wait longer for something that’s more interesting and intimate.

Oh God, something with a ton of people is I think it’s just going to always be the challenge to try and pull it off. Maybe the future of the industry and the future of theme parks is to have things that you’re not trying to aim for every single person to come through the door. It’s something for people who really want this kind of immersive experience and who are willing to pay the money or just wait the time to do it.

People will wait for something that’s really cool. Like we’ve seen them wait at 3:00 AM in the morning for Hagrid’s to open, months after it’s been open. If it’s the right thing, then we stop trying to make everything for every single person that comes through the door, it can really work. It’s got to be more intimate for people to really probably want to buy into it.

It’s hard, because theme parks are built on the idea that “We can come here and do everything together.” I think some parks have an have an advantage that they’re for a specific type of thriller kind of person or it doesn’t have to be a family of four trying to do this experience sort of thing. People can leverage that, and they’re willing to change up the model a little bit, it could be pretty successful.

[00:27:42] Bradford: Kind of like Cedar Point up in Ohio, is you like roller coasters, you go there. That is what you’re going for. If you like Star Wars, you’re going to Disney. You like Harry Potter, you’re going to Universal. You’re thinking it’s going to be more of focused experiences like that?

[00:28:04] Melody: Yes. Because the more focused stuff lets you get to do things that are a little different you could come up with something that’s original. Halloween Horror Nights, for example, they have original houses, and then they have IP houses. Obviously, their big draws are those IP houses, but they have some classic originals that people are just used to experiencing and liking to see that evolution. The more big IP houses they had, the more they can make some new originals if they wanted to.

It’s that fine line with theme parks, where if you can find some that people really care about to draw them in, you open the door for some originality, and also, show up as well too, so people can have something unique as well.

[00:28:56] Bradford: Because I’m me, I have another rule. You can’t use an abbreviation without defining it. You used IP, which is intellectual property. That way, none of my listeners can go, “You didn’t define it.” [laughs]

Going back, so as you say, you have IP and you use that to drive other things and some things are evergreen, such as Terminator 2 ran for 22 years at Universal, which means a lot of the people hadn’t seen it. Hey, I’m still proud of that project. I am all [unintelligible 00:29:31].

[00:29:32] Melody: [unintelligible 00:29:32] rest in peace, Terminator. It was a fun little ride. I do like working with the Stuntacular, though. That was pretty awesome with the Bourne project.

[00:29:41] Bradford: Then you have stuff like Men in Black, which I wonder how many people know there was Men in Black in the ‘90s before the Men in Black: International came out with Chris Hemsworth a couple of years ago. How much do you think knowing the intellectual property or the IP of the attraction is needed or do you think a good attraction is a good attraction?

[00:30:12] Melody: That’s a really tough one, to be honest. I do think a good attraction let’s anybody enjoy it. My mom, who doesn’t understand anything about theme parks, I take her on rides all the time, and she’s like, “This is so nice.” She has no idea what she’s looking at. She has no idea what she is experiencing, but she likes certain rides, and she will not get on other ones like a rollercoaster. She ain’t going to enjoy that. Take her on something that moves really slow, she’ll be a happy camper.

A good ride is just a good ride that has something that doesn’t make people feel lost. You just don’t want to feel lost on a ride. [laughs] It’s hard to get around not using an example, but Fast & Furious. If you don’t much about Fast & Furious, it’s hard to enjoy that ride, because I rode it a couple times. I still didn’t know who Dom was. I love The Rock.

A good ride, anyone should be able to walk on. I think some of the Harry Potter rides do it pretty good where you don’t know who Harry Potter is, you can go on Forbidden Journey and really enjoy it.

[00:31:29] Bradford: I did.

[00:31:31] Melody: You can go on and really enjoy it. Don’t have that hot double for you on it, but you’ll be fine.


[00:31:42] Melody: To go back to IP about what makes for an IP, I guess, I would have to say, “You don’t have to know an IP to enjoy a ride,” but your big IPs will help bring in your crowds and bring in people who love that thing, and it’ll also surprise people who did. Because when we walked by and my boyfriend saw the Fast & Furious ride, he was super excited and wanted to get on that. I was like, “Sure. Let’s do it.” He loves it. It’s still his favorite ride in the whole park. [laughs] Legit, is his favorite ride.

[00:32:20] Bradford: There are still people who think it’s funny that Men in Black is still my favorite ride after all these years, but it’s what it is. Now, when you get me to the other park, it might be a different ride that I like better, but it’s still the same thing. Because I’ll be the first to admit, I’ve worked on projects that I had no idea what the idea was, and I’ve had to sit down and read the books.

My favorite story is over 20 years ago now when Seuss Landing was opening at Universal Islands of Adventure. I had all of the Dr. Seuss books in my office for reference. I knew the IP, but knowing it is– you’ve read the books as a kid versus what color is the Lorax is two different things.

[00:33:20] Melody: That is really true. It’s a balance when it comes to the intellectual properties. Dr. Seuss, everyone can recognize what that is. Even if for some reason someone may not have read a book, they’re little stories on the way to help you understand the land and everything that’s happening. It’s when you throw something that’s a big deal and you’re not quite sure what’s going on. That’s just the feeling you just don’t want to have. Some of those more intimate things that I think could really be the future of a sector of theme park. It’s not the whole theme park, everything shouldn’t be some intermittent experience. If you had a few things like that, those things people would enjoy either way if it’s done right.